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 Post subject: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Salvage was added into the game to prevent fast destruction of domain giving cards, which are expensive and quick removal of them leads to big advantage.

But right now there are some cards which still avoid salvage thus giving big advantage:
Psychotic Break, Charm, Hunger, Mind Transplant (even worse, since it also cost 1 flux to get new Diplomat), other cards changing controller for more than one round.

First I though that this can be easily changed next way: whenever you loose control of entity you gain flux from salvage and figure loose all salvage tokens, but there is, for example, Drake Lair that probably shouldn't give flux back (this is like sacrifice). And also giving flux back when player can get control again might be to good sometimes.

So, my question is - what do you think about Salvage and controller changing cards and how this might be fixed?

My current idea is to add that control changing rule with exception of your own control changing cards, but I'm still not sure if that worth trying.

For those, who don't remember Salvage description:
Entity starts with Flux tokens equal to its Flux cost. Entity loses a Flux token at the start of every round. If Entity is removed but not sacrificed by the caster, the caster gains 1 Flux for each Flux token left on Entity. (The casting cost of Entities in play with Salvage is reduced by 1 for every Flux token)


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:27 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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If I understand correctly, salvage currently gives the flux to the controller, not the caster.

For example... if I ask a Diplomat turn 5, my opponent Mind Transplants it on turn 6, and I lysis it in response, who gets the salvage? My opponent? Or me? I believe the way it needs to work is that the caster gets it, regardless of who controls it when it dies.

I think a good solution to the question you asked is:
- When a figure with salvage tokens on it dies, the -caster- gets the salvage, regardless of who controls it
- When a figure with salvage permanently changes control due to a spell cast by opponent (i.e Mind transplant not Drake Lair), the salvage tokens are removed and caster gains the flux. However, if it temporarily changes control (Possession), no salvage tokens are removed.

An interesting case is Treacherous Foundation.. not sure what should happen in this case.

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I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:38 pm 
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In case of all non-permanent controller changes caster gain flux and Salvage's description says that. And yes, with Mind Transplant it is currently works wrong (more like a bug rather than intended behaviour).
Keyser wrote:
- When a figure with salvage permanently changes control due to a spell cast by opponent (i.e Mind transplant not Drake Lair), the salvage tokens are removed and caster gains the flux. However, if it temporarily changes control (Possession), no salvage tokens are removed.
What about Charm? What about Orb of Mind Control - still no flux back?
Keyser wrote:
An interesting case is Treacherous Foundation.. not sure what should happen in this case.
You mean Traitorous Foundation? How it is related to salvage? You still have your building and domain from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:44 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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I'd say that Charm shouldn't change anything with salvage tokens, as it's a high domain high flux spell that requires an adjacent creature. Quite different than the possession example, which easily lets you remove a Diplomat.

Yes, I meant Traitorous.. and as I said, it was an interesting case, because it makes the building kind of useless as far as control, but still gives you domain. I wasn't sure if it should effect tokens or not.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Possession works fine now, since you gain flux back if opponent destroyed or sacrificed your diplomat. May be I'll agree about Charm, but cards like Psychotic Break, Hunger are not so expensive.

And about Traitorous - well, who cares. You still have domain so not loosing too much. F.e. Desolation totem have same effect, but does it related to salvage? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:18 pm 
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I have a couple things to add.
1. Charm im not sure should give salvage.
Reason why? Player A Casts diplomat. Player B moves next to diplomat and charms. Player A loses diplomat and receives salvage. Player A then disenchants gaining salvage and their diplomat back. Sounds like a hardcore counter to me. Not saying it should or shouldnt but its definetly up for debate.
2. Yes psychotic break is less expensive and might warrant giving salvage. Mind Transplant Definetly should since its a spell and not an enchantment.
3. Anti magic shell is game winning on vessel and weather vane. I think this should be changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:24 pm 
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I think you're idea sounds good, Altren. It might also be that cards like Psychotic Break and Charm (to a lesser extent Mind Transplant) are simply too strong right now. I feel like 3x Psy Break is an obvious choice for any deck I make that goes to three domain with at least one Chaos in it. Part of the solution could be to make those cards a bit more situational, temporary or tricky to cast.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:42 am 
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I decided to change it next way: salvage gives you flux back whenever you permanently loose control over entity with salvage (not removed/destroyed, but swapped controller with Mind Transplant), that entity loose all salvage tokens. So right now this only affect Mind Transplant and nothing else.

Here is possible changed description (green is new text):
"Entity starts with Flux tokens equal to its Flux cost. Entity loses a Flux token at the start of every round. If Entity is removed but not sacrificed by the caster or if entity's controller permanently changed by spell, the caster gains 1 Flux for each Flux token left on Entity and entity loose all Flux tokens. (The casting cost of Entities in play with Salvage is reduced by 1 for every Flux token."

What do you think and also is this text looks clear enough?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Salvage change.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Looks clear enough.


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