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 Post subject: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:07 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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There are at least 6 autodraw threads, each with relatively active discussions. It gets a bit confusing, especially for someone new to the forums or someone who's been away for a while, to figure out what's going on with so many threads on one subject.

I've locked those threads.

From now on, this thread (and only this thread) will be for discussion of Autodraw.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:08 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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Would one of you please post the current status of Autodraw? I've been away for a while (laptop was stolen) and am not currently up to date on the latest Autodraw algorithm.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:27 pm 
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This is the best I can do from following most of the threads. Please fill me in if I have errors or am missing something and I will edit.

Original Autodraw:
1 - If you have no base, you draw one from your deck if you have one.
2 - If you need a domain, you draw a source of it from your deck if you have one.
Pros: Relatively simple. Always draw cards that you put in your deck.
Cons: Domain destruction strategies/cards considered too strong.

Current Autodraw:
1 - If you have no base, you draw one from your deck if you have one. If you don't have one you get a random basic building.
2 - If you need a domain, you draw a playable source of it from your deck if you have one. If you don't have one you get the associated basic building.
Pros: Noone ever runs out of domain buildings or bases, so solves the domain destruction issue.
Cons: Allows for basic building spam. Less simple/More confusing as it can give domain not needed in the deck and will do things like give you a basic building if you need a domain and do not already have 2 domains even if the intent was to use a diplomat to get the other domain. Forces bases on decks that want to operate without one. Combined with Salvage it allows for using Autodraw/Salvage to do things like sacrifice diplomats for flux or avoid most of the drawback of Sinkhole.

Proposals
1 - Keep what we have.
2 - Return to Original Autodraw, rebalance domain destruction cards if needed.
3 - No more autodraw. All basic buildings always available to play.
3a - Costs a draw to use one; Possible "Fated cards".
3b - Replace all basic buildings with a card called Basic Building that can morph into a basic of your choice and autodraws if you don't have one in hand.
3c - Domain button similar to cycle that allows you to cycle (or discard) a card to get a basic building.
4 - Original Autodraw. When no more domain buildings left in deck, then use Current Autodraw. (Possibly Current Autodraw but only 25%-50% chance of it activating).
5 - Current Autodraw with limited options for basics added.
5a - Only autodraw extra basic buildings of types included in the original deck.
5b - Deck checklist for basic buildings that can be autodrawn.
(Edited and added category #5 )


Last edited by Nighthawk42 on Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:13 pm 
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Nighthawk42 wrote:
Combined with Salvage it allows for using Autodraw/Salvage to do things like sacrifice diplomats for flux or avoid most of the drawback of Sinkhole.


"Sacrifice and Salvage" tactics were just as viable under the old system, and will remain viable under any system that ensures domain cards are being drawn (i.e., all systems proposed). Hence, I would say that it's more of a problem with Salvage then with Autodraw.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:58 pm 
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The best current options for the autodraw are probably these two:
yaron's
and my
I like the my one bit more, not because it's my, but because it allows even more combinating and using broader tactical movements (damn, this probably doesn't make sense.. it just allows more combos) and meanwhile it still keeps autodraw pretty easily understandable :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:00 am 
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Zurken wrote:
The best current options for the autodraw are probably these two:
yaron's
and my
I like the my one bit more, not because it's my, but because it allows even more combinating and using broader tactical movements (damn, this probably doesn't make sense.. it just allows more combos) and meanwhile it still keeps autodraw pretty easily understandable :)


As Jed noted, my idea of "forfeiting your draw after playing a basic building from outside your hand" is practically identical to his idea of having a "basic building maker" card in your hand, and redrawing it after each time you use it.

I think the main issue with all those systems is making autodraw smart enough to give you the domain you need for the cards you have in hand. For example:
1. If you have M cards in hand, and SX cards in hand, you should get M before S.
2. If you have MM on the board, an SXX card in hand, and an MXX card in hand, you should get S rather than M (surprisingly, this isn't the case).

The current autodraw handles most of these situations correctly. However, if I understand correctly, the new "Fated" keyword is meant to be exactly the same, just without this functionality (you just get the top "Fated" card in your deck, regardless of which domain it provides).


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:12 pm 
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yaron: yes, more or less. that's the problem which I hate so much .. autodraw is supposed to give exactly the card you want with exception if you (f.e.) have both Vessel and Lord in deck, then I think it's the only time when it can be random..
I've tried to solve this painful problem in my option.. but.. not much of response so far. I still hope it will be implemented as it works much better then 'Fated' option.
Also the suggestion with increasign cost of that 'Basic' building you've suggested and I've copied slowly to prevent never ending recasting of these sounds kinda good to me :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:22 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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One thing that is really annoying is losing because a player gets to keep playing a base over and over and over again because it autodraws and has salvage.

What if the salvage value decreased everytime you played a base with autodraw?

I.E. the first time you autodraw a Grove and play it, it's salvage value starts at 7. The second time you autodraw a Grove and play it, the salvage value starts at 5. The third time you autodraw a grove and play it, the salvage value starts at 3.

The reason I'm going in increments of 2 instead of 1 is because you automatically gain flux every turn anyway.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Quote:
The reason I'm going in increments of 2 instead of 1 is because you automatically gain flux every turn anyway.


this makes no sense to me.

that being said, if this discussion includes fixing salvage ... we should include the issue of sacrificing creatures with salvage. given that autodraw provides a guaranteed means of drawing cards like diplomat and lord, getting all the flux back (plus some other tangible advantage) when the *caster* sacrifices that creature means that deck building a competitive deck is even more esoteric.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:40 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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queeshai wrote:
Quote:
The reason I'm going in increments of 2 instead of 1 is because you automatically gain flux every turn anyway.


this makes no sense to me.

that being said, if this discussion includes fixing salvage ... we should include the issue of sacrificing creatures with salvage. given that autodraw provides a guaranteed means of drawing cards like diplomat and lord, getting all the flux back (plus some other tangible advantage) when the *caster* sacrifices that creature means that deck building a competitive deck is even more esoteric.


I don't see a problem with Salvage of a Diplomat. Sure, it gives you 2 flux, but it also means you lose the domain that it would have granted.

What part of what I said makes no sense?

If you cast a Grove it has 7 salvage counters, right?
Every time you cast it, it has 7 counters initially.

My proposal is that, if you are out of domain buildings and autodraw a Grove, it will have 7 counter the first time you play it. The next time you play an autodrawn Grove, it will start with only 5 salvage counters. The next time, it will start with 3.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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